/mu/ - Music (Temp full images)

>>55461454
>*but (even moreso than guys like Vampire Weekend) it just sounds really derivative to me.

Whoops, typo.

>>55461454
did they themselves ever really call it "experimental"?

I think they just made a record and published it to fans and critics that hailed it as that.(i love this record, by the way)

I love AnCo and this album, but you are correct in some ways. What I respect about this band is that they've been very outspoken about the influence African and traditional music has had on them, and they've brought it up frequently in interviews (even moreso in the ST time period). So at least they give credit where it's due. The fact that the album isn't wholly "original" doesn't take away my enjoyment of it, however.

yeah, the album is hipsterbait, but i try not to care much about that

>>55461641
>>55461687

Is their discog more of the same, in the sense they take a lot from African sound (without it being that changed, mind you, because it's just straight up THERE on this record—the African sounds themselves don't sound like they've been used in any innovative or fresh manner apart from being stuck in a white ensemble), and if I'm not into that, am I just not going to enjoy AnCo as a whole? Or is the African influence at least diminished/pretty much absent on certain other releases?

>>55462566
There is always a slight influence when it comes to the rhythms, but no, this album is a bit of an outlier in their discog. They definitely use more elements of pop and experimental music in their other releases. Try Feels, MPP, or Strawberry Jam. If you're okay with harsh sounds, STGSTV is really outstanding. Sung Tongs was a really odd place for you to start with them, honestly.

>>55462566
it's there onf eels but it's not as prominent

>>55461454
Despite its influences, at the end of the day it's American music. Surely there are certain qualities of this album that you would not hear in Africa.

>>55462673
>Sung Tongs was a really odd place for you to start with them, honestly.


>>55455951
Made me do it.

I think I might have heard a snippet of STGSTV, so I'll see where I can go with that. Thanks, dude! We'll see.

>>55462766
>Surely there are certain qualities of this album that you would not hear in Africa.
Oh, I don't doubt that in the least, but it really just strikes me as a ripoff/fetishizing of that sound as opposed to actually treating it as part of your tradition. I think white people can do that, in a way—Squarepusher, for example, thinks of himself as part of a lineage of artists including Miles Davis, and I think in some ways his output reflects that. Maybe it's just my biases, but Sung Tongs at least sounds like white hipster kids who took an African sound mainly because it sounded cool. It doesn't sound to me like it's there other than to go, "Hey, we're hip, aren't we?"—but again, I don't HATE them, it just kind of weirds me out a bit/makes me roll my eyes a little.

>>55462845
>I think white people can do that
I mean treat "black music" as part of your tradition and give it the respect it deserves as opposed to just take it and go "whatever makes me cool". Like, if you're not properly invested in a sound, especially some random ethnic sound/aesthetic you're not directly COMING from, but use it anyway just because it's nice makes the music seem somewhat shallow to me, at least in a certain sonic way.

It could go the other way, too (as in, paying homage to white culture)—when I read that Bjork included strings in Vulnicura to pay homage to her Nordic heritage, that made it a lot more compelling to me than just, "hey, strings sound cool, let's add strings". Except orchestral strings are pretty much unavoidable in Western music, whereas straight-up continental African percussion usually doesn't even come up, even in jazz or hip-hop contexts.

>>55462845
First off, you're making a quite a few assumptions about their artistic integrity and how they respect/view their influences and how knowledgeable they are about them. They didn't just "ripoff" the sound to sound hip and indie, they are very passionate about that genre of music--read up any interviews with them and see.

Secondly, I'm not even getting where you think that it's just a straight up duplication. You said in the original post yourself, they use quite a bit of electronics to create more "ambient" moments. Songs like Visiting Friends, The Softest Voice, and Kids on Holiday were inspired by artists like Wolfgang Voigt, Terry Wiley, and Steve Reich, while the more psychedelic moments had essences from psych-folk from people like Skip Spence or the Incredible String Band, and even the Sun City Girls. The harmonies are clearly taken from more Western influences, Zombies and Beach Boys to be specific, and the "softer" guitar sounds by folk artists like Linda Perhacs and Vashti Bunyan. I'm sorry but I hear quite a bit of infusion and collage of sound on this album.

>>55461454
It is by far Animal Collective's most overrated album. ["Merriweather" lives up to the acclaim it gets.]

>>55463246
Not even close, my nigga. coughSTGSTVcough

>>55463235
>just a straight up duplication
I'm saying the African elements of the album are a straight-up duplication/imitation.

For example, in the same way as, say, how Amon Tobin's Bricolage isn't "just" jazz, but as for the jazz it actually uses, it doesn't break new ground or anything, it just copies the sound (partly owing to the fact that the album relies on sampling, but that's another matter).

>>55463246
>Merriweather
Cool, I'll check it out later. Should I go wit that now, or STGSTV first?

>>55463352
And I'm saying that maybe you shouldn't discount the whole album on that basis since the African elements don't make up the entire thing? I thought they fused that instrumentation with more western elements quite well, but I suppose opinions will differ on the matter.

>>55463382
Do MPP first

>>55463485
>discount the whole album
I'm not saying it's terrible, it just doesn't particularly compel me. I guess what it is, is that the African sounds just sound gimmicky, at least to my ears, and that turns me off the album, at least somewhat.

I'll start with Merriweather, then.

>>55461454
This album is just what happens when you're white and eat mushrooms and have access to an acoustic guitar. Literally it's what would come out of anyone during this situation.

>>55463527
Well yeah, I can definitely see how that would make the album unappealing in many ways. Maybe you'll have better luck with some of their other releases--even quite a few diehard AnCo fans cannot stand this album.

i dont know about the african influence in sung tongs, but i can say that its one of my least favourite albums of theirs (im otherwise a fan). maybe for the reasons youve listed, actually, i havent really thought about it very much. interesting.

>>55461454
i thought the same thing the first time i heard anco. the first song i listened to was honeycomb. i too had previously heard real african music that my dad played for me when i was a kid. but i kind of like the influence that it had on anco. makes it wayyy more fun to listen to

>>55463585
ha ha true but they went and did it ;^)

It has a strong african influence but there's a lot to like the album for imo. There's nearly an equal amount of Beach Boys influence but there's also the minimal/ambient aspect of Softest Voice or Visiting Friends. Is there any african music that sounds like Leaf House? Not in my experience. That song is the shit.

>>55463881
um no its not true. all music is derivative, usually much more than sung tongs is. quit worrying about the race of musicians.

>>55464498
>all music is derivative

Depends on what you mean.
"Derivative" has two implicit meanings: (1) That it has influences, and (2) Is a ripoff/isn't original/DERIVES from a specific work or genre or artist to the point where it doesn't particularly stand out on its own.

>quit worrying about the race of musicians

Race is an important part of identity, at least in many cultures and for many people, and identity really affects what kind of art comes out. So, no, ignoring the race of musicians isn't a good idea. Now, assigning stereotypes to artists, sure, that's not good…but at the same time, when the link between white indie hipster kid and continental Africans seems tenuous, it's worth being suspicious whether that link is something legitimate, in honor and tradition, or just some other person picking and choosing a sound because he could. One is at least a lot more compelling than the other.

>>55464813
> or just some other person picking and choosing a sound because he could.
So you're saying that if it was made by black people it would be better music? So you're are saying that they arent' allowed to repurpose certain styles for their own purposes even though that is what birthed rock and hip-hop?

Well the fact that you're even using the term hipster as a descriptor implies that you think there is a dearth of merit to this type of music. AnCo works best if you drop any preconceived notions about what you're going to hear or who might like it. Their stuff is very much a mix of their influences for sure but I wouldn't say any of it is being done disingenuously. P Bear has a very repetitive style of playing and that def makes an impact on this record in particular but I would say that they combined all of their elements very well.

>>55464813
i think your concerns r extremely valid but they seem to have a real appreciation for african music and seem to know their shit about it, even posting on their message board and name dropping and educating fans on the musicians from Africa who inspired them. unlike artists like vampire weekend who always seem to skate around the issue. i think it all comes down to respect.

>>55464869
>black people it would be better music
No, didn't I say before that it could be done legitimately? (as in, Squarepusher coming down from the lineage of Miles Davis)—and I certainly don't think taking African sounds is okay "just" because you're black. I would honestly find someone like Young Thug, if he were to take continental African music and turn it into cheap commercialized bitches and hoes shit, as utterly fake music.

> So you're are saying that they arent' allowed to repurpose certain styles for their own purposes even though that is what birthed rock and hip-hop?

Are you implying that there aren't problems with the birth of rock? Keep in mind, the only reason Elvis is the so-called "King of Rock" is that he's a white guy who decided to do what black guys were doing before him. Now, that's different from my point, which is that there's a difference between taking a sound just because you can and doing it respectfully, or as part of a tradition. I think you're misconstruing my point here.

HEY GUYS LOOK ANOTHER GENERIC ANCO HATE THREAD

Are these automatically generated by /mu/? Or is one bitter anon always posting them?

>>55464929
>i think it all comes down to respect
That's mainly my point. I do hope that they know their shit, but the other factor of the matter is, how much can a bunch of white Americans "know" continental African music, since they don't live that life? I guess a good way to put it would be if a bunch of white yuppie Brooklynites were rapping about growing up in the hood. Sure, they might KNOW a lot about the hood, black culture, etc. and give it the utmost respect and name-drop it in interviews, but is that still legitimate? I wouldn't say so.

>>55465041
>GENERIC ANCO HATE THREAD


>>55461454
>Like, I don't hate it


>Not reading the OP

>>55464903
>term hipster as a descriptor implies that you think there is a dearth of merit to this type of music
Oh, no, not at all. I do think the music is fine, at least the parts that aren't blatantly continental African sounds.

I mean, fuck, most of the music on here (/mu/) is hipster music, or is made by hipsters in one sense or another, and I'm fine with that. It just seems disingenuous, or just a straight rip-off of the sound without regard to proper respect.
But I already typed about that here:
>>55465045

>>55465012
>Are you implying that there aren't problems with the birth of rock? Keep in mind, the only reason Elvis is the so-called "King of Rock" is that he's a white guy who decided to do what black guys were doing before him. Now, that's different from my point, which is that there's a difference between taking a sound just because you can and doing it respectfully, or as part of a tradition. I think you're misconstruing my point here.
What I'm trying to say is that cultural property is still property and an essentialist spook and that you can't project intentions onto an artist based on where they're from and should just take the art on its own terms. Elvis was more of a performer than an artist, sure, but rock & roll is still good music despite being a rip-off of forms created by black folk alternately you could say hip-hop started out with people "appropriating" culture that they didn't respect and it really doesn't matter

>>55465045
definitely all true points, but why do you seem to respect someone like squarepusher who is a privileged white male himself who's most likely lived a comfortable life? what's the difference and where do you draw the line? and where do you keep getting the idea that they are disrespectful or disingenuous?

Imagine two really high as shit dudes who love the Incredible String Band and African rhythms.

That's Sung Tongs.

>>55465045
>but is that still legitimate?
nothing is legitimate, friend. Authenticity is just another image or is, at the least, negligible. You have no access to the author's subjective experience beyond the world given to you in the art

>>55465045
>how much can a bunch of white Americans "know" continental African music, since they don't live that life?

For what is worth, Deakin actually went and lived in Africa for a short time.

Plus they're not claiming to "know" African culture, they're just drawing from music they enjoy, which is what every musician ever does.

Anyone else get really emotional from Visiting Friends?

Not sure what it is, very introspective.

>>55465234
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

Visiting Friends is the lull period at 3-4 AM after you and your friends have chilled all night doing psychs and now you're all just sort of sitting silently together and enjoying the moment and the presence of each other.

>>55465234
I feel you. My favorite AnCo song probably, it's very nostalgic and warm for me.

>>55465251
will you be my friend and do psychs with me

>>55465145
>who's most likely lived a comfortable life
So was Miles. He was born to a rich family and went to Juilliard. Also, in terms of the jazz thing, it is a bit different from continental African music, in that jazz, despite being "black music" DOES definitely have white influences, and even in the genre as a whole, whether it's from the age of big band, where people like Frank Sinatra (white) and Ella Fitzgerald (black) reigned supreme, or in later years when people like Bill Evans and John McLaughlin bumped shoulders with Miles Davis. The reason why I can accept a guy like Tom Jenkinson being a part of the Miles lineage is because of the fact that 1) Jazz inherently DOES have white/European influences from the beginning, at least to a certain degree, 2) whites were always part of the genre, 3) Squarepusher trained for years SPECIFICALLY IN THIS GENRE and gained mastery of it, and 4) ideas inherent in IDM, in terms of the complexities of the rhythms and chords, etc, have parallels in jazz (then again, I will admit to you that when I heard the first track of Music Is Rotted One Note, I perceived it as quite a Herbie Hancock rip-off), among other factors.
But ultimately, you could simplify one point relevant to what you're talking about (among others less relevant): despite jazz being "black music", you never had to be black or poor to play it. Miles wasn't born in a poor family and some of the jazz greats were white.

As for
>>55465145
>where do you keep getting the idea that they are disrespectful or disingenuous?

See >>55465045

could you guys please rec me some actual african music that this could have been inspired by

Do keep in mind, though, I'm not saying I HATE AnCo.

My point really boils down to >>55465045

>>55465276
I will do psychs with anyone who wants to chill and listen to Animal Collective.

>>55465190
>You have no access to the author's subjective experience beyond the world given to you in the art

That's not really true. Sure, I can't live life through someone else's eyes, but knowing the context of where and when a record is made is extremely telling.

>>55465190
>nothing is legitimate, friend

I know you're trying to make a deep point here, but you're really not. There's a difference between being part of something versus just aping the sound, which is what the AnCo percussion here sounds to me, especially in the context of the band.

>>55465291
I'll give you the list of artists Deakin has mentioned:

Francis Bebey
Pascal Diatta
S.E.Rogie
Ali Farka Toure
King Sunny Ade
Fela Kuti
Nico - Eternel Docteur Nico
Mamadou Dioubate
Yacouba Sissoko
African Brother Dance Band
Ghana Soundz Vol. 1
Dimi Mint Abba & Khalifa Ould Eide - Moorish Music From Mauritania

Gold From Wax- Ethiopian Urban
Ethiopiques series

>>55465346
It doesn't sound like you're in the mood for being convinced of anything.

>aping the sound
Just gonna say that's a funny phrase to use regarding African rhythms.

>>55465364
thank you friend

>>55465346
if your main issue is the percussion then thats a bit strange as there's only percussion on about 1/4 of the songs

>>55465126
>should just take the art on its own terms

Its own terms involves a larger context than the art itself. For example, Public Enemy's It Takes A Nation Of Millions has a LOT to do with the world it was created in.

>>55465126
>"appropriating" culture that they didn't respect
I doubt that. People like Rick Rubin were diehard rock fans (from which things like rock came to influence the sound), and let's not forget that hip-hop in a way descends from genres like disco as well.

Ultimately, hip-hop drew from cultures around itself that it already existed among, whereas just grabbing a sound from a culture that isn't part of you sounds suspicious.

You might want to read up on some of the stuff regarding Paul Simon and his use of traditional African music in Graceland. It's a similar kind of deal.

>rock & roll is still good music
And I'm not going to say AnCo is bad, either, but in terms of rock, you're going to have to accept that racism in America did shape the direction of the genre (well, at least initially)—also keep in mind the music played by Blacks were socially rejected, but gained enormous acceptance once white guys just took it and slapped their faces on it (now, TO BE FAIR, rock musicians of both America and Britain did more than that—but yes, racism is something that helped form rock. It doesn't mean it's a bad genre, but if someone regarded it with a cynical eye, I couldn't exactly fault that person, either).

>>55465393
No problem, the post is in the CA archives if you want to read the whole thing. Deakin is super passionate about it.

>>55465318
I'm down.

>>55465369
Well, no, it's just that convincing has nothing to do with moods and more to do with the actual arguments being put forward.

>>55465419
I found it to stick out like a sore thumb, but again—I don't hate the album. It just feels disingenuous. And yeah, people can be disingenuous without really realizing it themselves.

>I do hope that they know their shit, but the other factor of the matter is, how much can a bunch of white Americans "know" continental African music, since they don't live that life? I guess a good way to put it would be if a bunch of white yuppie Brooklynites were rapping about growing up in the hood. Sure, they might KNOW a lot about the hood, black culture, etc. and give it the utmost respect and name-drop it in interviews, but is that still legitimate? I wouldn't say so.

That (↑) is my main point regarding the whole percussion shenanigans. Honestly, if you could make a great argument against that, I might be convinced. But you guys seem to be skirting around that point so far.

>>55465346
I'm not trying to make a deep point. I'm saying that if you allow for such slippage as giving any other artist a pass on this then it isn't a legitimate criticism because the untenable position you hold is a traditionalist one that relies on wholly arbitrary criteria. All art is failed mimicry. I'm sure some elders got mad when Some of the kids picked up electric guitars to play their traditional music instead of thumb pianos or whatever but that's just another way to do things. It might sound like shit but pinning that to authenticity doesn't hold any ground. Authenticity as a concept is slippery and relies on the concept of inauthenticity but the argument boils down to a "how many grains of sand makes a pile" deal.

>>55465474
How do we argue against that? Obviously they aren't from Africa, they have comfortable lives, and they are white and privileged. They most likely DON'T know what it's like. Yes they still were inspired by the percussion and paid homage to it on 4 songs on their album, but they have acknowledged that and never claimed to innovate that style or be "super experimental."

ITT: the vulgarity of trying to politicize art

>>55465474
It's because you don't actually have a point.

>how much can a bunch of white Americans "know" continental African music, since they don't live that life?

At no point has any of them ever claimed that. They literally just like the way the music sounds, so they play music like that.

Please stop ignoring this point.

Music is not about "knowing" it. It's about fucking playing it.

This all happened because I posted Sung Tongs in the Birthday thread, lol.

>>55465611
Thank you for sparking musical discussion, no matter how misguided it may be.

>>55465559
>How do we argue against that?

That's my point.

I guess (to put it in a different perspective), you know about that film, 47 Ronin? With Keanu Reeves? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1335975/

Yeah, it's not a great film, but that's not really my point.

My point is that they've taken a traditionally non-Western (in this case, Japanese) cultural artifact (the tale of the 47 Ronin) and then "Westernized" it—shoved Keanu Reeves (mixed race, sure…but in terms of American media he's lumped in with the whites, and he's part Chinese (among others, mind you), not Japanese) in, did a Western retelling of it, and overall profited off Japanese ideas while warping it for general consumption.
How many Westerners do you think who have watched/are going to watch the movie have either an intimate knowledge of the culture and the story, or at least know the story told in a more traditional way that actually adheres to the Japanese culture? Considering 47 Ronin is a mainstream summer movie, probably not many.

My complaint/criticism of this particular AnCo record is the same thing. Even if 47 Ronin was a good movie, these kinds of baggage would still remain. And, you know what, honestly—I enjoyed the AnCo record and I enjoyed the 47 Ronin record. But aspects of them do strike me as fake, to me. I'm sure the guys who made 47 Ronin respect the original tale and Japanese culture as a whole, just like AnCo does (or like the Brooklynite yuppies who respect the hood in the other example), but that in itself doesn't mean that that baggage doesn't exist.

I'm not saying that the album shouldn't exist, but I do think these kinds of things do stick out. Clearly, for AnCo fans (who may or may not have listened to continental African music…but considering that rarely gets brought up in /mu/, I suspect it's the latter), it doesn't bother you. But as someone who notices that, I can't just shake it off the album.

>>55465643
The problem, however, is that 47 Ronin takes place in Japan and Sung Tongs does not take place in Africa. The other problem is that they aren't making any political statement and maybe they just like to play drums a certain way (Panda's best drumming is to be found on Spirit and Feels btw whereas Sung Tongs is probably one of his lesser performances admittedly). The other problem is that I can't speak for anyone else (though apparently you can) but I'm an avid AnCo fan and also listen to a shitton of African music.

>>55465483
>Some of the kids picked up electric guitars to play their traditional music instead of thumb pianos

That's different. That's taking a traditional format and reinvigorating it (or ruining it, perhaps, but that specifically isn't my call), whereas AnCo is taking pop material and attempting to add a distinct ethnicity to it that they just don't actually have. Sure, the "electric guitars" might not be of this fictional tribal culture, but the difference is that, at least at this point, rock isn't tied to a distinct ethnic or cultural background in the way continental African music is. Rock is distinctly a mixed-race style that, from its early days, was extremely multicultural, not to mention already part of the capitalist system (AKA, hey, Mr. Chuck Berry, try to sell as many copies of "Maybelline" as you can!), which inherently tries to expand the products in question (in this case rock music) to larger and larger markets. I wouldn't say this is the case for genres like the traditional African styles AnCo draws from.

>>55465588
>At no point has any of them ever claimed that.

See
>>55465364
It seems to me (at least from what you guys have been telling me), that they ARE trying to claim at least SOME kind of lineage. I'M saying they don't have enough to claim said lineage—being a passive, but knowledgeable consumer of it who has dipped his toes in it a couple of times doesn't mean you're actually part of it.

It annoys me when songwriters namedrop their influences as if pointing out how derivative the music is lends it credibility from those other people.

>>55462785
Bro. start with mpp and feels. then SJ and STGSTV and campfire songs.

>>55465643
I never was really trying to dispute any of what you're saying. Animal Collective is my favorite band, but I do sometimes struggle with the issues of appropriation of other (mostly African and Indian) cultures they include in their music. I do believe their hearts in the right place, but yes I'll admit it comes across as misguided

>I enjoyed the AnCo record
I guess at the end of the day this is what it comes to for me. I enjoy the record, it makes me happy, and it does feel sincere to me. That's why I still listen despite how I feel about them borrowing from a culture that isn't their own. Is that wrong of me? Maybe. But at some put I just stop intellectualizing things and just learn to enjoy it. That doesn't mean the issues you've brought up should be ignored or dismissed, however.

>>55465724
Now this I don't get. Where on earth did you get the idea that they were trying to "claim lineage" from that. A fan asked for recommendations on African musicians and he gave them. You're reaching on this point.

>>55465739
I mean most of the time they get asked directly.

>>55465689
>47 Ronin takes place in Japan and Sung Tongs does not take place in Africa
That's not a good argument, seeing as one is a movie and the other isn't an artwork that needs a visual "setting".

That being said, shoots of 47 Ronin were done in Budapest, reshoots in London—so, in a sense, you could very well say that 47 Ronin doesn't take place in Japan after all.


>>55465689
>they aren't making any political statement
and the 47 Ronin aren't either.
>they just like to play drums a certain way
Look, I can appreciate that, but if it sounds like a straight copy of a culture/ethnic background that isn't theirs
>being a passive, but knowledgeable consumer of it who has dipped his toes in it a couple of times doesn't mean you're actually part of it.
> did a Western retelling of it, and overall profited off [whatever culture's] ideas while warping it for general consumption
for example, being criterion for what is and isn't yours, if it sounds just plain lifted, at least in style, it's going to stick up as a sore thumb. It's gonna be bothersome, at least for me, anyway.

I'm sure there were people who watched 47 Ronin and didn't give a damn how or why the original story was warped and the original culture misrepresented—and even if you do care, you can still enjoy it, but again, just because you think it's enjoyable or good doesn't mean that baggage just disappears.

>>55465724
okay now you are just plain projecting shit on them. You start out by admitting that maybe they do respect the culture and need evidence and say that would be better and then when its provided you jump to saying they are claiming lineage (wtf??) with these artists.
>whereas AnCo is taking pop material and attempting to add a distinct ethnicity to it that they just don't actually have
when have AnCo said that? they may have said they took influence from a caribbean artist or something but they never said they were the next Fela Kuti or something or that they were adding any ethnicity to it. And the fact that you reduce music genres to the superstructure of their economical basis is completely trite. Why should I read Shakespeare when he is obviously just a product of monarchy? Why should I read your posts?

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of the noise/field recordings is? What does it add?

>>55465837
it was recorded with an old ribbon mic

>>55465771
>Now this I don't get. Where on earth did you get the idea that they were trying to "claim lineage" from that

>I'll give you the list of artists Deakin has mentioned:
is what he said. I'm assuming these are people (among others) AnCo claims to be part of in their tradition, at least in ONE sense or another—not a direct descendant, perhaps, but still a part of it in some musical and (broad) cultural way, in the way that the 47 Ronin interact with Japanese culture.

Then again, perhaps I'm just pushing that particular point a bit too much, but I hope with the 47 Ronin metaphor I've been able to explain, at least in part, of what kind of bothers me about AnCo's use of that traditional African sound.

>>55465803
It's not a good argument because I'm not arguing against a good analogy.
>Look, I can appreciate that, but if it sounds like a straight copy of a culture/ethnic background that isn't theirs
Wait now is it a straight copy or not? If it's a perfect reproduction of a style then they would be more faithful and if it doesn't sound that much like them then it's an interpretation they purposefully chose to deviate with. Why is this ideal untouched culture you're imagining have some some sort of mystical quality that makes it better than folks from another culture playing something similar with good intentions? Was Ugg the caveman a better musician than Eric Clapton because he was untouched by imperialist-capitalism?

>>55465819
>>whereas AnCo is taking pop material and attempting to add a distinct ethnicity to it that they just don't actually have
>when have AnCo said that? they may have said they took influence from a caribbean artist

They do end up doing that, at least to a certain extent. They don't have to say they're doing something even if they're doing it.

>>55465819
>>55465819
>the fact that you reduce music genres to the superstructure of their economical basis is completely trite.
There is a difference between taking part of a culture that is inherently multicultural that is inherently tied to capitalist forms of expansion versus taking the sounds of a genre that isn't multicultural that isn't trying to expand. You might have misconstrued my point there.

>>55465849
> I'm assuming
stopped reading there. Gathered all I need to know

>>55464929
What African musicians inspired them? I'm a huge fan of the album and would love to hear what inspired it

>>55465849
What on earth. There was no "claiming of tradition", it's literally just a recommendation. If I asked you for the best 5 books by African authors and you gave me a list, how would you be trying to appropriate something? How is giving a list of artists problematic in any way? You are seriously projecting.

>>55465887
see
>>55465364

But a variety of other artists from different genres influenced this record. This anon >>55463235 named quite a few

>>55465880
>They do end up doing that, at least to a certain extent
There is a difference between attempting to add a distinct ethnicity to pop material and incorporating certain patterns you like into your music. Does a continent own a copyright to certain rhythms? Are they taking from they "injecting their music with a culture they don't have" when they take influence from krautrock?
>There is a difference between taking part of a culture that is inherently multicultural that is inherently tied to capitalist forms of expansion versus taking the sounds of a genre that isn't multicultural that isn't trying to expand.
People can't help what culture they're born into, you racist. And there's nothing inherent in their music that is "trying to expand" or takes part in that culture any more than it takes part in the other one.

listen to it louder
actually listen to it tripping. its so fucking lush

>>55465364
this is an avey/pBear incarnation of the collective

>>55465896
You know what, sure. Maybe I'm dreadfully wrong.
Then again, "lineage" might have been wrong here. "Cultural ties" might be a better way to describe it.

Going back to the 47 Ronin example—they don't think it's actually going to be part of Japanese canon or anything, and you're right, AnCo probably doesn't think of themselves as "African music" (at least not directly).

However, they still are basically copying from a culture that isn't theirs,
>being a passive, but knowledgeable consumer of it who has dipped his toes in it a couple of times doesn't mean you're actually part of it.
>did a Western retelling of it, and overall profited off [whatever culture's] ideas while warping it for general consumption
putting the original culture in a different context and then warping it.

Sure, 47 Ronin is a Hollywood movie and is aware of that, in the same way that AnCo is a band that's aware of the fact that it's a group of white Americans. But even if they don't claim a "lineage"—and I admit, I probably was pushing there too much, but you guys have said
>>55461641
>they've been very outspoken about the influence African and traditional music has had on them
which, to me at least, seems to influence, affect, and be part of the basis of their music (at least on this record) in a way that the Japanese culture is part of 47 Ronin, which is a Hollywood film.

>>55465613
hah, this

>>55465909
Thanks, I was reading the thread from top to bottom and didn't see that before I posted.

Honestly I think OPs argument is pretty flawed but I'm just happy to see genuine discussion with minimal shitposting

>>55465802
good point

>>55465045
lmfao, I would love to see you try and explain this to the members of anco

"Yea that genre you really like that you wanted to incorporate into your music? yea well I consider that a gimmick and you're white anyway so you can't."

Has nobody ever considered that perhaps a musician can incorporate a particular sound into his work simply because he likes the sound? Is that somehow illegitimate?

>>55466105
We've been trying to drive that point home to OP for a while but it seems like he values the context of the music rather than the product itself.

I mean I understand taking context into account, but putting it before the actual music is just backwards

Ultimately, though, if the 47 Ronin thing isn't good enough for you, think of the many other "reappropriation" examples you see all the time: Katy Perry in some weird Egyptian video, or Paul Simon's Graceland, or whatnot, though such examples are going to work to various degrees.

>>55465771
>but I do sometimes struggle with the issues of appropriation of other (mostly African and Indian) cultures they include in their music. I do believe their hearts in the right place, but yes I'll admit it comes across as misguided

>>55466105
I think you can do that, but I think there's cultural baggage associated with that; again, in a certain way, it's reminiscent of White artists taking from unrecognzied Black artists and making rock'n'roll—sure, it's fine music and all, but there is undeniably a cultural undercurrent there that isn't exactly pleasant.


Actually this rock example might work better than 47 Ronin.

>>55466124
>values the context of the music rather than the product itself.
I think they're both important. As I said—I didn't hate the album, and I'm not saying it shouldn't exist or anything, but even as a listener such things do bother me. Maybe that's my fault.

Anyway, I did enjoy the album, the "reappropriation" of African percussion did bother me though, and I will check out MPP next; maybe I will like that more.

Good night.

>>55466151
I find your opinions silly but you explained yourself well and with respect for others in this thread. Good night

>>55466009
you should call Tyler because you are a walking fuckin paradox. You say you are annoyed by anco and compare it to 47 Ronin (and shoehorn it wherever you can) and say it >profited off Japanese ideas while warping it for general consumption.
and therefore isn't faithful to the original culture and say >Oh, I don't doubt that in the least, but it really just strikes me as a ripoff/fetishizing of that sound as opposed to actually treating it as part of your tradition.
and present as if its a goo thing to treat it as a part of the tradition and then later say >It seems to me (at least from what you guys have been telling me), that they ARE trying to claim at least SOME kind of lineage.
like its a bad thing.
AnCo are trapped in a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation here in regards of whether or not they sound like africans. If they don't then you say theyve diluted the pure african blood of the music and if they do then you accuse them of rippping it off. If they are part of tradition you call them out for being whitebois (trying to fit in with other cultures) and if theyre not then you still call them out for being whitebois (who don't respect other cultures). What do you want from them?? damn!

>>55466151
try Spirit next, man. Its got the least amount of african fuckery going on and is mostly just good noise pop psych-folk

>>55466009
Why I think people keep bring up the fact that they mention their influences is because you seem to be implying that AnCo think they have reinvented the wheel or created something original, when in reality they've openly stated that they are kinda derivative, they aren't hiding that. I think you might be buying into a certain narrative that publications have built around them, judging by all the assumptions you're making.

No one is disputing the fact that African percussion had an influence on this album, although I really disagree that it sounds straight up traditional (i think the slight delay added to it it modernizes it). In the context of the record, with the fusion of electronics, field recordings and background noise, it doesn't seem like a ripoff at all.

>>55466177
>What do you want from them?? damn!
The point I was trying to make is that even if the African drums are straight lifted (hence the rip-off thing), if they're placed in a Western context (the rest of what's going on in Sung Tongs) they become caricatured—no matter what authenticity is present in the African drums, it's in context of Western pop music, and in the Western music world, "world music" isn't treated with the respect it's due.

It strikes me as gimmicky, and honestly?—I think I probably would have just enjoyed the album with this whole "cultural context" stuff if they relied on just "ordinary Western guitars"—not that they have to, of course, in the same way Elvis didn't HAVE to draw from black musicians.

>>55466205
>i think the slight delay added to it it modernizes it
You know what, that's a fair point. I'm not saying that the rest of the stuff going on is African, just the drums (like I said earlier in the post).

Basically,
1) The African drum thing is really derivative/ripped-off (at least to me)
2) So they've taken this sound, which is inherently of a culture that they don't belong to (a phrase I've been using way too often in this thread, but eh), and put it in the context of Western music, thus presenting something that clearly does have something taken from an authentic African tradition, and presenting it in a context which isn't very much African.

Something like that, anyway.

>>55466170
>Good night
I meant to sleep but I saw some responses pop up when I updated. Good night for real this time, I have stuff to do tomorrow and records to listen to, haha.

Gn!

PS:

>>55466282
>derivative/ripped-off (at least to me)

>>55466205
>i think the slight delay added to it it modernizes it

I said that's a fair point because it actually goes against one of my biggest points, in that the percussion on this AnCo record seems to be straight lifted from the African tradition.

for real for REAL this time, Good night.

>>55466293
Good night, man. It was nice talking to you, and if you enjoy MPP, come join us in /AnCo/. You held your own against a bunch of us defensive fans, so much respect to you.

>/mu/ actually had this argument without it becoming an argument about purely race
>people were generally respectful and had well-formed arguments on both sides
Is this what Euro-/mu/ is like? Does the shitposting really die down that much?

>>55466459
I myself was pleasantly surprised. Maybe it is euro-/mu/, though I'm an American with insomnia.

>>55461454
it's just you